Curse

nebojats · Nov 21, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

How I got the idea:

I was sitting in a plane for a long time thinking about possible new classes. Two things kept popping into my head when I tried to come up with what was lacking from Guild Wars currently:

a) There is really only one effective tank: the warrior
b) Practically nobody plays mesmer in pve.

My idea: make a new class which will a) take damage like the best warrior out there and b) necessitate the use of the poor, abandoned mesmer.

The Shrift:

As with all other Guild Wars classes, the Shrift is devoted to his god. However, the other professions' faith pales in comparison to his zeal. The Shrift unceasingly explores his own frailty so as to fully comprehend his lord's infallibility. To worship, he reminds himself constantly of his own humility and insignificance. To explore his weakness, he subjects himself to pain as often as possible. The more excruciating the wound, the more intense his religious fervor, and the more powerful are his prayers. To most, his existence seems torturous. The Shrift basks in the glory of agony and perpetually prostrates himself before his deity's greatness. The Shrift is covered in painful piercings which are constant reminders of his own corporeal flaws. He exalts pain as a form of communion, and uses the power of his god to remind opponents of their own lowly mortality.

He acts as a sort of mesmer tank, drawing the opponents' attention to him, all the while decreasing their effectiveness, rendering them useless. He has a lot of health and armor, does almost no damage, has little energy (think warrior), and is melee range. What separates him from a warrior tank and a straight up mesmer? The Shrift isn't about direct damage; he sits there and gets the crap beat out of him without doing much damage in return. His source of energy and most of his spells are dependent upon him getting beat upon, similar to how some warrior skills depend upon adrenaline. Whereas the mesmer creates realities, the Shrift tricks people, manipulating who they attack and where they target their spells. I imagine he looks like a crazy shaman with disgusting piercings all over the place (finally, another class besides necro that doesn't look like a model), but that's not too important.

These are the four attributes I came up with:

1) Enthrallment - Determines the number of enemies the Shrift can manipulate (I'm thinking between one and four). Only one Enthrallment enchantment can be used at a time.
2) Masochism - Similar to Soul Reaping for Necromancers. Affects how much damage taken is converted into energy.
3) Reprisal - Affects mid-range calls/chants which are dependent upon enemy attacks.
4) Equivocation - Affects spells which confuse opponents' skills.

Strength:
The Shrift shines when he is truly getting wailed upon by as many people as possible. This allows him to maintain energy and spam Reprisal skills, which quickly weaken the attacking enemies to the point of uselessness. The only stat that can't be weakened is the enemies' health.

Weaknesses:
1) A Mesmer can dominate the Shrift in many ways that render the Shrift useless (use your imagination). One quick example I thought up: by breaking the Shrift's Enthrallment enchantment, the mesmer takes attention away from the Shrift back towards other players. Without being attacked, the Shrift does hardly any damage and has little energy, allowing him to sporadically cast Equivocation spells.
2) A Necromancer that uses Well of Silence or some such will shut down the Shrift's reprisal skills. The result: he's a passive tank that gets beat upon but does nothing to his attackers in return except minimal weapon damage.
3) The Shrift has little self-heal and is dependent upon a supporting class to tank effectively without dying.

How the Shrift works in battle:

The Shrift enters the frenzy along with other point-blank attackers. After setting up an Enthrallment enchantment, 1...4 foes in mid-range are compelled to attack him. As foes attack, damage received is converted into energy which the Shrift then uses to set up Reprisal enchantments. Here are some examples:

a) Vengeful Drain: For every ___ points of damage dealt to you by target opponent, that opponent loses ___ points of energy.
b) Vengeful Enfeeblement: For every ___ points of damage dealt by target opponent, there is a ___% chance that one of his or her skills will be disabled for 60 seconds.
c) etc., etc. No Reprisal skills do damage. They only lower the effectiveness of opponents (I'm sure many more painful skills can be dreamed up by you guys).

As well as drawing fire and crippling enemies, the Shrift may also blur the lines between friend and foe by using Equivocation skills (which aren't dependent upon being attacked). These skills can make enemy monks accidentally heal allies, make opponents deal damage to other adjacent opponents, etc. A quick example:

a) Fog of War: for 30 seconds, there is a ___% chance that target opponent's skills will affect a random ally instead of an opponent.

So that's my idea. The main benefits that I can see:

1) A viable option for a tank other than the warrior.
2) The mesmer would be most effective at shutting down a Shrift (which would otherwise be a pretty unstoppable tank). This would reinvigorate a perpetually unpopular yet valuable class.
3) The role is original. The Shrift doesn't heal, doesn't do damage, doesn't exploit the dead, and doesn't buff allies. The Shrift casts hexes primarily, but none do damage and most are dependent upon getting beat on.
4) The Shrift also adds a bit of chaos into Guild Wars (chance of mistargeting spells), which hasn't been introduced as of yet.

What is important is coming up with a fundamentally new role that works within the current framework, and I think the Shrift does the job. I have some ideas about back story, armor, and weapons, but that's not important. What do you guys think? Please, no flaming?

actionjack · Nov 21, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Its not bad.. and certainly do have a very unique functionality (especially after the AI update)

But will it be a tanker, or more of a caster? If a tanker with high AL, it might need a alternative mean of energy management to upkeep its skills. (as its energy should be expectly low)

Also keep in mind that a skill need to function in PvE as well as in PvP. So while a spell that would confuse or draw a mob can be done, how well they be translate when use on a character that another player control?

nebojats · Nov 21, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Its not bad.. and certainly do have a very unique functionality (especially after the AI update)

But will it be a tanker, or more of a caster? If a tanker with high AL, it might need a alternative mean of energy management to upkeep its skills. (as its energy should be expectly low)

Also keep in mind that a skill need to function in PvE as well as in PvP. So while a spell that would confuse or draw a mob can be done, how well they be translate when use on a character that another player control?

Thanks for the feedback!

Regarding your first point, I don't think I made myself clear. I was thinking that getting beat up actually gives the Guile energy, adrenaline, or whatever his Reprisal skills run on. The Guile needs to be attacked in order to be effective. Otherwise, he runs out of energy, because like you say, he will have a low amount of base energy. Whether that would be determined by a fifth attribute (like soul reaping for necromancers) or a Reprisal enchantment, I'm not sure.

How would it work in PvP? I'm not sure. I was envisioning the lured prey physically running over and attacking him. The controlling player couldn't stop attacking, but would be free to use any skills he or she wants. I don't know how feasible that would be.

System_Crush · Nov 21, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Well if you can miss target spells from foes, instead of having a allure enchantment make foes attack you, it could divert attacks on adjascent,nearby,shout range(in the area might be to large) allies to yourself, or divert attacks on 1...4 allies in the area.

Not as only the damage gets transferred as its now with dark bond or severls monk skills,
But arrows staff/wand orbs will actually alter cource and fly toward you.

this might put them in a dificult positon when someone uses barrage, but I guess that is one of the things that makes in balanced.

by the way, mesmers(and rangers) only break 1 enchantment a time(necro's are much better at it) what is to stop a guile from having multiple allure enchantments on himself?

more by the way, whats with the name? Guile means: sneaky, evasive, decieving, exploiting; that is not truly what I'd use to describe a tank(not even if its a half-naked guy with lots of piercings)

I'm not ready on hand with a new one(that would sound acceptable: MeatShield) so I can't hold it against the class, its good, 't's got potential.

nebojats · Nov 21, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

Well if you can miss target spells from foes, instead of having a allure enchantment make foes attack you, it could divert attacks on adjascent,nearby,shout range(in the area might be to large) allies to yourself, or divert attacks on 1...4 allies in the area.

Not as only the damage gets transferred as its now with dark bond or severls monk skills,
But arrows staff/wand orbs will actually alter cource and fly toward you.

this might put them in a dificult positon when someone uses barrage, but I guess that is one of the things that makes in balanced.

by the way, mesmers(and rangers) only break 1 enchantment a time(necro's are much better at it) what is to stop a guile from having multiple allure enchantments on himself?

more by the way, whats with the name? Guile means: sneaky, evasive, decieving, exploiting; that is not truly what I'd use to describe a tank(not even if its a half-naked guy with lots of piercings)

I'm not ready on hand with a new one(that would sound acceptable: MeatShield) so I can't hold it against the class, its good, 't's got potential.

Again, thanks for the non-flaming feedback. So I can address and incorporate your critiques, I'll simplify (what I perceive to be) your arguments:

1) The Guile's skills should be mid-range.

2) Have damage diverted to the Guile, rather than force opponents to actually attack the Guile.

3) Related to point 2, Allure enchantments should target allies instead of foes (redirect damage from target ally(s) to Guile, rather than: force target foe(s) to attack guile).

4) A Guile with multiple Allure enchantments would be problematic.

5) The name is lame.

My responses:

1) I agree with you. I think there are already too many long-range spell casters. The Guile is an in-the-middle-of-the-action sort of class and it makes sense that he has to be near his prey.

2) Perhaps it would be more feasible to have just damage redirected towards the Guile. Pathfinding as it is, opponents could just get stuck behind a rock while running up to attack. I think it either has to be one way or the other: attacks or just damage. If arrows and wand attacks alter course to hit the Guile, fighters should also veer course to attack the Guile.

3) I see your point. It goes hand in hand with just redirecting damage. However, I think the Guile's purpose is to affect enemies, not allies. I think the actual targets of the Guile's Allure enchantment should therefore be on enemies, not allies.

4) I think I was unclear when I laid out the Allure concept. I envision the Guile setting up an Allure enchantment which draws the attack/damage of 1...4 opponents. I think only one Allure enchantment at a time should be allowed. To put it in Guild Wars terms, maybe it would be a stance instead then.

5) Yeah... I was thinking deception as in confusing enemies into attacking and targeting spells where they otherwise wouldn't have. I agree. The name could be changed.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 22, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

The player may only be using that one unit, any skills which take control of your character away don't just counter the enemy, the counter the enjoyment of the game. Besides that, there are alot of extremely powerful counters to normal attack, and combining that with the inability to cease attacking is too powerful, you tack SS on 2 enemies and draw those 2 plus 2 more to attack you and they all kill themselves.

The identity is pretty unique in look, but we just obtained 2 classes which are devout followers of the gods, and all classes are devout followers of at least one god, so a devout follower isn't exactly original. But what really mars this class is that the class isn't appealing. Maybe you have a piercing fetish, or maybe it seems cool, but the look isn't so much different than a necromancer covered in scars, and inviting attacks really isn't much different than inflicting damage to yourself with sacrifices. I really don't see the Guile attracting new players to the game, anything you get out of this identity is easily provided with necromancer and ritualist, a new function, but no attraction, I don't really see any opportunity.

And although super fine models may not be realistic, sex sells, and if we want to go with something less magnetic, they can always go with any number of beastmen for far more interest. Personally, I don't know many combatants who arn't in shape, especially in feudal combat.

nebojats · Nov 22, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

The player may only be using that one unit, any skills which take control of your character away don't just counter the enemy, the counter the enjoyment of the game. Besides that, there are alot of extremely powerful counters to normal attack, and combining that with the inability to cease attacking is too powerful, you tack SS on 2 enemies and draw those 2 plus 2 more to attack you and they all kill themselves.

The identity is pretty unique in look, but we just obtained 2 classes which are devout followers of the gods, and all classes are devout followers of at least one god, so a devout follower isn't exactly original. But what really mars this class is that the class isn't appealing. Maybe you have a piercing fetish, or maybe it seems cool, but the look isn't so much different than a necromancer covered in scars, and inviting attacks really isn't much different than inflicting damage to yourself with sacrifices. I really don't see the Guile attracting new players to the game, anything you get out of this identity is easily provided with necromancer and ritualist, a new function, but no attraction, I don't really see any opportunity.

And although super fine models may not be realistic, sex sells, and if we want to go with something less magnetic, they can always go with any number of beastmen for far more interest. Personally, I don't know many combatants who arn't in shape, especially in feudal combat.

Thanks for the non-flaming critique! For organization's sake, let me sum up (what I think are) your arguments:

1) The class makes the game not fun.
2) The class is too powerful.
3) The concept is unoriginal and rehashes old features.
4) The class is unappealing to play.
5) The appearance is unattractive.

Points one, four, and five are pretty subjective, and without a more formalized argument, aren't worth addressing in detail. My simple, yet equally valid, responses are: it sounds fun, it sounds appealing, I like the appearance.

Regarding point two, refer to the weaknesses I pointed out above:
1) A Mesmer can dominate the Shrift in many ways that render the Shrift useless (use your imagination). One quick example I thought up: by breaking the Shrift's Enthrallment enchantment, the mesmer takes attention away from the Shrift back towards other players. Without being attacked, the Shrift does hardly any damage and has little energy, allowing him to sporadically cast Equivocation spells.
2) A Necromancer that uses Well of Silence or some such will shut down the Shrift's reprisal skills. The result: he's a passive tank that gets beat upon but does nothing to his attackers in return except minimal weapon damage.
3) The Shrift has little self-heal and is dependent upon a supporting class to tank effectively without dying.

Regarding point three, refer to the new aspects the class would add to gameplay:
1) A viable option for a tank other than the warrior.
2) The mesmer would be most effective at shutting down a Shrift (which would otherwise be a pretty unstoppable tank). This would reinvigorate a perpetually unpopular yet valuable class.
3) The role is original. The Shrift doesn't heal, doesn't do damage, doesn't exploit the dead, and doesn't buff allies. The Shrift casts hexes primarily, but none do damage and most are dependent upon getting beat on.
4) The Shrift also adds a bit of chaos into Guild Wars (chance of mistargeting spells), which hasn't been introduced as of yet.

Although I appreciate the non-flaming response, I would like even more advise which offered tangible critique that could be used to develop my idea (i.e. how to make the class fun, a suggested alternative background, etc.). What you say pretty much dismisses the concept completely. According to you, the idea is pretty much worthless and that makes me sad.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 29, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

A counter doesn't make an undesirable effect alright to add. Mesmer counters everything, just because this compliments Mesmer doesn't make it alright either.

There is a need for a real tank class, a class which actually contributes his own defensive strengths to his allies rather than just another heavily armored unit which will be avoided, or a support skill which will dampen attacks. But there are much better ways to do it, as described in the recent thread, "Exsisting classes and their purpose", a class which actually contributes blocking and interception of attacks by staying close to them is a very effective tanking tactic, and it doesn't involve undesirable effects like control stealing and character manipulation. AI manipulation is not a tactic, it is forced. There are alot of skills which force disinsentives on enemies if they attack, but never one that steals control, control of your character is how players define combat, if control is taken away, than skill is dethrowned as the decisive factor in combat, and build takes over.

The effect can be achieved without adding player control manipulation, and control stealing is not an acceptable function. When you take control away from a player, your taking skill out of the game, it is obviously taboo to remove the function which is advertised as the primary element for this game.